WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. 12 shots fired. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. But Im my opinion, they are tools! Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. Battlestar Galactica. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Plus: How to contact us. interacts online and researches product purchases Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. It doesnt get more damaging that that. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Reality. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. The .45 knocked him on his ***. So they downvote actual biological functions here. Now, I read the officers story. Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. You could smell the gunpowder. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. The quibble is over. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Thank you. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. Yes I can only get 2 shots off accurately in the same time as 4 with a 9 but again 2 usually does it. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. It makes a bigger hole. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. They are a secondary source at best. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. Just saying. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. Sorry for the rant. Hunt! I have never shot a people. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. This was an interesting discussion. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. F=MA is not applicable. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? The slower 45acp round FMJ will pass through but leaving more energy expended plus a larger wound channel so the same to a lesser degree applies to the 45 acp FMJ; but, if you have 45acp JHP in the gun usually one hit whether it be in the shoulder, leg or chest area game over. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. Spread the word; knowledge is power! The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. for all the same reasons. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. WebYes, definitely. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. I imagine humans are the same. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. View our Terms of Service .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. Interesting. The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Open carry is fine where Im at. In the end of the nearly five-minute shootout, five FBI agents were wounded and twoJerry Dove and Benjamin Groganwere killed. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. Generous readers sustain our work. WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. And It will get the job done quite handily. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. I shot Master for a while. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. The story makes that even sound too few. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. and love a SA trigger. A .223 is just 55 grains. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? I also have one that many people will call garbage. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. The victim died immediately. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. I sure do love 45acp though. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. I was in the military and was law enforcement. Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. So any caliber is better than none. I think it is more the exception than the rule. 45 stopping power! The science says otherwise. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. My $.02. Copyright 2023 #firearmtraining. Its hesitation that makes people miss. Take it from me, a physics major. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. A true warriors gun. Open the tools menu in your browser. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. Take this for what its worth. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. So In a effort to accommodate all soldiers they switched to a milder recoiling 9mm round. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. You are up close and personal with this guy. end of discussion. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Give me a break!! .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. Shot placement was nearly identical. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Well, depends on whom you ask. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Its proven knowledge. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Ammunition can really change performance. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. To each his own. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! Plenty of gang shootings. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Both forget one major factor. High-velocity You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. Either will get the job done for protection. What you provide is false true and true. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. WebAs shown in Fig. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Its hard for Civilians to understand the firepower of the Military & Police, and what they can choose to bring to bear on their target, but we are responsible for each bullet fired, as Civilians! Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy.